Following your dreams can be intimidating--it brings so many challenges and presents so many unknown potential paths. But sometimes (often?) the hard path is also the right one. Today, we talk with Danielle Tubbs, creator of vegan cookie company Tubby's Taste, about how she followed her sense of wonder to create a future she wanted.
Matt Stauffer:
Hey, and welcome to Things Worth Learning. I'm your host, Matt Stauffer. This is a show where a curious computer programmer who knows how to talk, that's me, interviews fascinating people about their passions. My guest today is my dear and old friend, Danielle Tubbs, the founder of the vegan cookie company, Tubby's Taste.
Matt Stauffer:
Danielle, would you mind telling the audience a little bit about yourself, whether it's your personal or your professional life?
Danielle Tubbs:
Sure. Hi, Matt. Thanks for having me.
Matt Stauffer:
Of course.
Danielle Tubbs:
I am Danielle Tubbs. I am CEO and founder of Tubby's Taste, which is a boldly flavored Jamaican-inspired vegan cookie company. I'm based in Chicago, but I'm actually originally from Miami and went to-
Matt Stauffer:
305.
Danielle Tubbs:
... went to college at the University of Florida which is where I met Matt a million years ago, seemingly.
Matt Stauffer:
So long ago.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. And right now, let's see, what else? So I run a vegan cookie company. I write poetry when I'm feeling really emo.
Matt Stauffer:
Sometimes you podcast, although I think the podcast's dead right now, huh?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. I don't have time for podcasting, but I had three episodes of a podcast where I basically just kept all of my listeners company while they did or didn't do whatever it was they were supposed to do.
Matt Stauffer:
It really felt like we were just hanging out. It was real good.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
And you send me TikToks. That's one of the things you do in your free time.
Danielle Tubbs:
Oh, yes. One of my passions is sending Matt TikToks. And I love post apocalyptic type shows, eating good food. Everything I cook at home is plant based and delicious and really creative. And I really like going for long walks. So, yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. And getting to know all the random people in your Chicago neighborhood.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yes. My best friend is a 89-year old man who's been on the block since 1947. Shout out, Mr. Bobby.
Matt Stauffer:
I feel like I want Mr. Bobby on the podcast.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah?
Matt Stauffer:
You might have to bring him here for this.
Danielle Tubbs:
That would be great.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. So real quick, not everybody has the experience of knowing what plant based or vegan means. I mean, most people have heard of vegan at some point in their lives, but I think one of the interesting stories is that you did start doing vegan cookies. And I will get to this in a second, but you did it before you were actually vegan. But now you're cooking primarily plant based. Does plant based and vegan mean the same thing or is there any delineation that we need for anybody?
Danielle Tubbs:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Vegan, depends on who you ask.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
In my terms, they are.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
I just say plant based because it sounds sexier, but I mean no animal products. So no dairy, no eggs in your items. And then I think some people take it further and say no honey of course, no animal products. So honey would be not listed as vegan, but there are some people who are plant based that use honey. I do not. And then there's real things that you can get into with sugar. For me, I use organic cane sugar because there's a really unsexy thing with regular processed sugar where they use maybe animal bones to smoosh it up or something so people...
Matt Stauffer:
Did not know this.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. You can get real, real intense about it.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. So both with plant based and vegan, there's varying levels of adherence to like, "How far have you gone back in the production chain?" to figure out what they're using. Is that one of the things you're saying?
Danielle Tubbs:
I think with vegan, it's completely like, if you're trying to not use any animal-based products, then that's the term for you.
Matt Stauffer:
Got it.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I use vegan for my cookies because I do not.
Matt Stauffer:
They actually are. Okay, cool.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. And then sometimes I think with just new foods and a lot of the mock meats and stuff, I just-
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, they do call them plant based instead of vegan.
Danielle Tubbs:
Huh?
Matt Stauffer:
They do call them plant based.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. You're seeing plant based more. I think it just is like a sexier term. But then some people, I've seen some reports of people looking on the back and they're like, "This actually isn't fully vegan."
Matt Stauffer:
Got it. Okay. One thing-
Danielle Tubbs:
And then there's a vegan lifestyle where it's like, you don't wear leather or you don't do a lot of the things-
Matt Stauffer:
Right, which makes sense because plant based maybe makes more sense because it can be a-
Danielle Tubbs:
Diet.
Matt Stauffer:
... plant based food which is different than all the other things that vegan could possibly mean.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you could say "I adhere to a vegan diet," but not necessarily stop wearing your-
Matt Stauffer:
Full vegan lifestyle.
Danielle Tubbs:
... leather shoes or whatever. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. I do want to just... For everybody who knows, I think we've all joked about the fact that if you ever want to know if somebody's vegan or does CrossFit or Peloton or whatever, you'll already know because they've already told you. And Danielle is not that person. Honestly, I don't think of you as that, even though I know that you now actually do cook that way. But again, for the longest time, your story when you were telling people about Tubby's Taste was just kind of like, "Yeah, I run a vegan cookie company and I'm not vegan." And then that led into some really interesting questions.
Matt Stauffer:
I know we're probably not going to get the... Well, actually we'll probably get into that today. So we don't need to dig into that right now. But I do want to note that I've tasted these cookies many, many, many times and they don't taste vegan. They just taste freaking... Whatever that means, right?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
I know a lot of people have said "Vegan sweets are really hard to pull off and these are just freaking great." So let's just set that in people's brains as you listen for the next 30 minutes, don't think about this being some nasty tasting stuff that tastes like plants. It tastes like an amazing cookie.
Danielle Tubbs:
Although, plants do taste good. Everything can taste good with some seasonings, some flavor.
Matt Stauffer:
Fair. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Speaking as a very normal food consumer, I have some ideas.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
All right. So you know the first question is always, do you have any sort of life mantra or phrase or idea you try to live your life by?
Danielle Tubbs:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think for me there's two things. I think timing is everything. That's something I've more recently, in the last couple, years have been living by. Just accepting that a no right now doesn't necessarily mean never. And things work out at the right time for hopefully the best outcome. And then my other one is, do something today that your future self will be proud of you for.
Matt Stauffer:
Ooh.
Danielle Tubbs:
So whether it's, "Okay, I'm tired, but I got to cook this food so that I have food for the next three days" or "I should go on this walk." Or "Instead of binging another episode of this show, let me walk up and down my stairs for five minutes" like I did last night.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. I love that. Come on.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah, because it's winter in Chicago. Sometimes you don't want to go outside, but you got to move that body.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, you do that walk inside because you're going to get... Yeah. It was 29 degrees this morning and I felt like I was so spoiled for complaining that I was working out in 29 degrees because I'm sure that up there it's a lot colder.
Danielle Tubbs:
Honestly, I don't think we're that colder today.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh, yeah? Okay. Well, I felt very proud of myself to get an outside workout in 29 degrees, because most days I don't want to do that.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. I'll be walking to work right after this, which is good.
Matt Stauffer:
Woof.
Danielle Tubbs:
Woof.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. No, I mean not woof. Yay.
Danielle Tubbs:
No, it's all about those layers.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. Yeah. I do have multiple workout layers. I was like, workout shorts, workout pants, thick shirt, workout jacket, second workout jacket, hat, and you just shed them as you need to.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. And you could also do a little bit of a shorter workout or do something inside too in addition.
Matt Stauffer:
I moved some of the workout inside, so yeah. You got that. All right. So you know this podcast is about one particular topic that you're really passionate about. Can you tell me what we're going to talk about today?
Danielle Tubbs:
I think I decided on following your dreams even though it may be the more harder path, I guess. Harder, painful, tricky.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Stressful. Less predictable.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
All that kind of stuff. Okay. So I feel like where I want to start with this one is I feel like we can't know about you following your dreams unless we know your actual story. So could you tell the real quick story of what does it look from you going from where you were before to where you are now? What is the dream that you're following and what was the process like of actually making that decision?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. I guess I'll start quickly with college.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
So in college, I started off as an interior design major and I think I just wanted to be on Extreme Makeover Home Edition. Remember that show? "Move that bus!"
Matt Stauffer:
Yes.
Danielle Tubbs:
Every Sunday, just bawling. Like damn, Ty Pennington, you get me every time.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh, Ty.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I started off as an interior design major. And then over the next two years, I was okay, but I wasn't great at it. I was good enough somewhat. And at the University of Florida, after two years they have this evaluation called Pin Up. And you kind of pin up all your best work. And then the judges go through and they select and see if you are good enough to go on to upper division. If not, you can retake some classes or you switch your major.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
So sophomore year, I realized for every break that I had in college, I didn't really go home except for Christmas break, but I was going on service trips. So coming to Chicago for a spring break to do some service stuff, going to Nicaragua for a month to do service stuff. So I realized that I was spending all of my free time helping people, and I just didn't really see a path for me with interior design doing that. I would've probably just ended up doing something that's really beautiful and aesthetically pleasing.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, it's just a job.
Danielle Tubbs:
But not necessarily helping the people that I wanted to help. So I came back after maybe spring break of sophomore year, right before that Pin Up evaluation and I decided to walk into my advisor's office and switch my major. And my friends, the morning of Pin Up, my friends are texting me, "Hey girl, we don't see your board. What's going on?" It was such a rash decision, but I knew that it was right for me.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I switched my major to sociology because my thought process was, "Well, if I want to help people, I'm not going to be all pompous and assume that I know what they've been through. So let me study people."
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I love that.
Danielle Tubbs:
So then for the next two years and the summers and everything, I went to school and studied sociology. And I think a combination of growing up in Miami where you just are faced with like, "Okay, not..." Especially a black person in Miami, your faced with like, "Okay, not everybody is going to be like me."
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
Not everybody's going to believe the same things. Not everybody's going to be from the same place. There's a lot of diversity in Miami, which I value and I thank it for, and so that combined with being a sociology major and learning about all sorts of people. I took poverty classes, I took human sexuality classes. I just was filled with all this knowledge and appreciation for all different types of people. That kind of helped me to grow into the person I am now. And I ended up graduating with a sociology degree and it was 2011 and there were no jobs.
Matt Stauffer:
Surprise!
Danielle Tubbs:
So a lot of my friends ended up going to do Teach for America. And I decided to do City Year. And with City Year, you pick a certain city, so I picked Chicago because it had really had a great impact on me when we went spring break sophomore year.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I came to Chicago where I knew no one and did AmeriCorps. And then that led into working in education nonprofits for a number of years. So I spent my early adulthood figuring out all of that admin kind of work which benefited the stuff that I do now for sure, and allowed me to see so many different aspects of the city. I've never lived a basic existence in Chicago where I feel like, you can move here, you could work in a corporate setting, make good money, live in your very convenient neighborhood right off the lake and just be a basic bitch. And I've never been able to afford to be a basic bitch.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, touche.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I've had to experience a little bit more of the real Chicago, you know?
Matt Stauffer:
Real life. Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I've been super far south, super east where you're like, basically your phone's saying "Welcome to Indiana." Super far north, just... And I've seen it all. So it's been a great experience. But working in education nonprofits, I was a great employee, loved my coworkers, my bosses loved me. I did go to work, but there was something that was still like... I don't know. I felt still a little basic. I'm like, "This is just not very, I don't know, riveting for me." I don't feel like I'm being able to be my true self. And one, maybe it's this emotion, feeling, that I love is the sense of wonder. I don't know. Some people don't. Some people do not like change. Some people do not like... Oh, the unknown? I love it. I'm like, "Ooh, what will this next year bring?" you know?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I remember... Do you remember that song Oceans?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. It's funny, because before you tell me this, the thing that came in my head right now was Into the Unknown from Frozen 2. That was what's in my head right now. But yeah, I remember Oceans.
Danielle Tubbs:
I remember being 24 and listening to the song, walking down the street and be like, "God, what will become of my life? Where will I be in the next..." Whatever. I was just tired of being able to afford to go to wine bars after work and that was my thrill, you know?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I mean nothing wrong with the wine bar, right? But hopefully there's more in life.
Danielle Tubbs:
No, not the wine bar.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
But that was like... You know? Like, whatever. So I was like, "Okay, I can afford to live by myself in this cheap apartment. And this is it?" I just felt not creative, not outside of like, "Let me decorate my apartment." There was nothing else really left I felt like.
Danielle Tubbs:
I had been baking for a couple years. And so going back to Miami, I grew up in a Jamaican household. And Jamaicans have these traditional cakes for the holidays. There's black cake which is also like a fruit cake, rum cake, sweet potato pudding, all these things. My mom, my aunt, my grandmother, they were the masters of this and sold it to people in the community. So it'd be every person they met and their coworker, come Christmas time, calling up with orders.
Matt Stauffer:
They're making... Yeah. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Danielle Tubbs:
And they're all Jamaican so they all worked in healthcare and had multiple other jobs and stuff. So I grew up with that, people who look like me, baking. I knew we could do it. Everybody in my family can cook something serious. And until I tried other people's food that I said, "Oh no. No, no." Even restaurants I go and I'm like, "Oh no."
Matt Stauffer:
I'm just going to make my own food, it'll be better.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. I was spoiled, you know?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
So anyway, I ended up just learning, teaching myself how to bake from scratch. Because when I was helping them, I was cutting parchment, sifting flour, doing the things they didn't want to do. So I learned how to bake from scratch and over years, brought things to work, parties, all of that. About two years in, one of my friends whose vegan was like, "Hey, I wish you would make something that we all could enjoy."
Matt Stauffer:
Did it sound like what they would be sounding like?
Danielle Tubbs:
No, not at all. That's not her voice at all.
Matt Stauffer:
All right.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah, you should hear what your voice is. No, I'm just kidding. I don't have a voice for you.
Matt Stauffer:
Shoot.
Danielle Tubbs:
Sorry.
Matt Stauffer:
No, I'm very curious. But yeah, keep going.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I got into the kitchen. I started experimenting and I'm like, "Well, if it's going to be vegan, it's going to pass these stipulations of being vegan. It also has to pass my taste test."
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
And because my last name is Tubbs, my college nickname is Tubby, Tubby's Taste-
Matt Stauffer:
Tubby's Taste. There you go.
Danielle Tubbs:
It's the name of the company. Yeah, so basically, I spent years just thinking it was a hobby because everybody in my family, they got their full-time job, they got their side hustle, hobby, whatever.
Matt Stauffer:
A side hustle. Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
Went to therapy because my-
Matt Stauffer:
Woop, woop!
Danielle Tubbs:
Huh? Yeah, it's great. My dad-
Matt Stauffer:
Just therapy in general.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah, my dad ended up passing away somewhat suddenly. And then I went to therapy because I was like, "I got to get it together. I got to get some closure and whatnot." And so started going to therapy for that. And then eventually, got some closure on that and started just complaining about my 9:00 to 5:00 being unfulfilling.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
*Danielle Tubbs:**
And so my therapist was like, "Well, if you could get paid to do anything, what would you do?" That's also not her voice at all.
Matt Stauffer:
Well that sounded like a very therapist-y voice. It's okay. No judgement here.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. I was like, "Tubby's Taste, but how am I'm going to support myself on that?" And she's like, "Well I don't know. Do some research. Figure out what it takes to be legit." And so I came back two weeks later. We had our session, she's like, "Hey, did you do your homework? Did you figure out what it takes to make it legit?" And I was like, "Oh yeah, bought a domain name, and now I'm an LLC."
Matt Stauffer:
There you go.
Danielle Tubbs:
She's like, "What?" So from there, I've kind of just like kind of every year crafted what I wanted to do. And I continued to work in education nonprofit for years after that, for four years after that. And then at a certain point, found myself... After, people were like, "Hey, we really see you moving up in this department to this and this level?" And in my head I'm like, "I don't see myself here. I really see myself not doing this."
Matt Stauffer:
I'm not doing this. Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
But then, it was one day that I was crying on State Street to a... What is her name? Emeli Sande something. Emeli Sande? Is that her?
Matt Stauffer:
I don't know. I've never heard of her.
Danielle Tubbs:
Anyways. It's called Architect or Sweet Architect or something. I don't know.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
I just... I connect with music.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, totally.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I'm walking out State Street, past, I don't know, Target or something, Foot Locker. I don't know. And I'm just like, tears streaming down my face. I text one of my friends and I'm like, "I want to grow my business. I want to do this, but I can't afford to do it." And she's like, "Okay, move out of your one bedroom. Move into my basement apartment, blah, blah, blah." And so I cut my expenses, I think, by 60%. I started saving money. Eventually left my 9:00 to 5:00 with about six months of living expenses saved, knowing that I would have to pick up side hustles to still pay rent. I wasn't just going to live off of that. So I went from doing my business here and there to more time. Not even full time, just more time. I had flexible side hustles of babysitting and then one where I worked with a non-profit. Shout out to Future Founders.
Matt Stauffer:
Woop, woop.
Danielle Tubbs:
And went into schools a couple days a week, worked with students. And yeah, every year I had a different kind of level of more commitment, more commitment. And then with the pandemic, both the side hustles were dead and I had to make the business work. It was hard and definitely got on that unemployment because I was not making any money from the business. And then after George Floyd, I posted about just not even wanting to sell people cookies. I'm just, it's hard enough being a black woman and then a black business woman. I just don't want to get back to this as usual when we're like dying out here.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. And Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery and countless other names-
Matt Stauffer:
Ahmaud. Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
... at that time. And I ended up being featured in a viral article that was like, 11 Black-owned businesses to support that are vegan and ship nationwide by VegOut Magazine. And I got 500 orders in 10 days.
Matt Stauffer:
Yes!
Danielle Tubbs:
And all of my friends who their side hustles or their businesses were all surrounding events, of course with 2020, they were shut down. So they're like, we want to help you out. We want to come see you win. So I had people who were event decorators, event planners, PAs on movie sets, all of a sudden packaging cookies and taking things to USPS which was quickly changed to UPS, and all these things. And then since then been able to scale up the business.
Danielle Tubbs:
But has it been easy? No. Has it been scary? Yes..? But for some reason, I've always known that I will survive, I guess. I will get through it. And I think because of my background... One, I don't come from money. There's never been a lot of like, "Oh, I could just, 'Mom and dad'." Well there's no dad, but like, "Mom can back me up if I..." Nope.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
Nope. There's none of that.
Matt Stauffer:
You're on your own here.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I think it's like I've had to figure it out. And I've lived pretty leanly. I'm not a big flashy girl, hence going this long without getting my nails done. I'm getting them done this week though!
Matt Stauffer:
There you go. Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
But yeah, I think there's certain things about me that are set up well for this kind of unpredictable entrepreneurship life that have helped. So I think when analyzing, going the hard route, especially for me, I make a product.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Physical product. Yeah, with physical supplies and physical shipping.
Danielle Tubbs:
Which honestly, if I could have a talent where I could code something and it could, in my mind, it works while I sleep. I don't how to do that.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. No, that's kind of what it does because once it's on there, it's just making money.
Danielle Tubbs:
No, I mean, or if I could create a course. And who's to say I can't? But you know what I mean.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, maybe that's next thing.
Danielle Tubbs:
Maybe it's the next thing.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
That would be great. Or even if it was something I could ship worldwide because of shelf life. Because my cookies are vegan, nuts, soy and preservative-free.
Matt Stauffer:
So they got to be fresh when you ship them out?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. They got to be fresh.
Matt Stauffer:
So it's kind of like every order requires effort. There's no kind of like, it's just going to scale wildly.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah, because we freeze, because freezing is a natural preservative. So there's that. But yeah, there's a limit on how much... Unless I have a warehouse-type freezer.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. So I was going to say that it's been worth it though. Because I wake up, even though there's challenges and sometimes I'm making good an amount of money and then sometimes I don't hit my goal or whatever, I know that everything's moving in the right direction. I've seen a lot of traction since I've been able to do the business full time. I've gotten PR opportunities that have really just validated how much I've worked. And everything that I've done up to this point, I'm pulling from pieces of that, like winning pitch competitions and stuff. I had to go through the struggle of those first couple years to even gather that information to put in the pitch competition. So I'm seeing all of that, everything was worth it kind of thing.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I mean, I love to go there in a second talking about how I've... because I think not everyone would understand that you're not just making cookies. You are building a website, you are consistently submitting yourself to pitch competitions to get $5,000 for this so you can get a new machine that's going to allow you to scoop them faster or whatever. There's so many pieces here of the work that you're doing. And every single day, you're doing something and you're like, "Oh, I had the opportunity to be on this particular new segment. So now I can hopefully get that..." There's always new stuff you're doing there.
Matt Stauffer:
I want to get there in a second, but I want to go back for a little bit. When it came to the sacrifices you had to make to make the transition... I called it your corporate job. I know it's not actually corporate. It's non-profit. But I think it's that same... It's the 9:00 to 5:00, making the transition from the 9:00 to 5:00 to stepping away from that. Because you've been doing it as a side hustle before. I think a lot of people know how to make a side hustle or at least hopefully have been given inspiration from other places of "Go find something you're super interested in. Find some way that overlaps with people who aren't willing to pay money for it." I feel that's a more manageable, well taught thing, but I think it's that shift when you're willing to drop the 9:00 to 5:00. I think a lot of people think "I'm going to drop the 9:00 to 5:00 when my side hustle is able to reproduce the income I'm making for my 9:00 to 5:00."
Matt Stauffer:
For you, it wasn't that. You said, "Look, I'm going to do it when I'm able to drastically leanify. I'll totally cut down all my costs." You as a grown woman, living in a big city where you just want to be out living this life, made the sacrifice to live in your friend's basement. It wasn't that at unglamorous, but still that's not like the... That's not where we're working for. Your dream life is not living in someone's basement, right? And you went from working one job to working multiple jobs, two of which weren't actually your dream. So it feels like that was a pretty big hit in certain aspects of your life quality that you decided to do in order to do that.
Matt Stauffer:
So I guess my question is, what was hardest making that decision? And if there's one thing you could say, if someone else is in that situation, right? They've got a side hustle, they've got their main job and they don't know if they're ready to make that transition, what would you tell that person?
Danielle Tubbs:
For me, it really is like, you need to evaluate yourself, because at the end of the day you only have one life to live. And you need to know who you are and how you want to do things. So they also say this when it comes to businesses, "How do you want to grow? Do you want to grow organically? Which is kind of slow and a little bit at a time. Or do you want to grow exponentially, like really fast?" And that affects what you do, the moves you make. And so for me, I knew that... I mean, obviously to be an entrepreneur, you're already a risk taker. But I'm more hesitant, I'm a real millennial. We never had money so the little money I have, I'm trying to save and whatever.
Matt Stauffer:
Trying to hang on to it. Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
And so for me, I knew I needed at least something covered by having side hustles with my transition. I knew I needed to make enough to cover rent and expenses even though I had those six months. Because immediately, I want to say a week before the last day at my 9:00 to 5:00, for some reason I caught the nastiest virus and was in the hospital overnight and then I had a $2,000 medical bill.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. And then that's six months runway.
Danielle Tubbs:
Which is like 1/3 of what I saved.
Matt Stauffer:
It's exactly... Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
You know what I mean? Or 1/4 of what I saved. And I was like, "Are you kidding?" So yeah, I think you just have to know yourself. Sit down, do some soul searching and say, "Okay, do I have the type of business that could take off really quick? Do I have the type of support that could support me if I wanted to, I don't know, spend the type of money to open a brick and mortar?" if that's your goal, or the type of person to sign off on that, you know? You have to really analyze the type of business you're starting and how you want to make moves.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
I know some people are like, "I slept in my car and I really did... This is not..." I knew I didn't want to do that.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. You had your limits too, right?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. I had my limits. So yeah, I was living in my friend's basement with a roommate after I lived alone, which is a big sacrifice.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
And it was a tiny spot and it was dark and it was... But it was a lot cheaper. And I tried to spend a lot of my time outside doing things.
Matt Stauffer:
It wasn't your car. Better than the car, right?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't have a car and I don't drive so, yeah, you know.
Matt Stauffer:
I wasn't go there, but yeah, you know.
Danielle Tubbs:
But yeah, people decide what they're like, what their bare minimum is for them. Ideally, I always say like, "I don't dream of labor. I don't dream of struggle." And so it's a different rock bottom, like bare minimum. And I always knew that I was always a great employee, so I could always go back to work if I wanted to.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
And actually, right at the beginning of the pandemic-
Matt Stauffer:
You were about to.
Danielle Tubbs:
I applied for a job and made it to the third round.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, I remember.
Danielle Tubbs:
And that same week is when I got those 500 orders and I decided to just, "No, I can't turn back. I have to see this through." So I think you just have to do some soul searching and evaluate. And there's no rush unless you feel a rush, you know?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. One of my recent guests, Adam Wathan worked at Tighten with me and made his first e-book and it made a ton of money and he was like, "You know what? If this can do this well, I need to take this risk to go out and see if I can kind of use that as my runway and then try my own thing." And it worked out for him. But one of the things he often told me was he's like, "What's the worst case scenario? The whole thing falls apart, and I go get another job. I know I'm going to go to place." I think that's a really helpful one, is this... This whole, like, we have a little bit of a scarcity mindset with jobs and a lot of other things in life, we're just kind of like, "Oh, well, what am I going to do?" You'll get another job if this doesn't work out, right? But you'll never have the chance to try this again in this particular way.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
But one of the things interesting about the difference between you and Adam is that Adam, as someone who's making digital products like you just mentioned, he could sell 10 million digital products or one, and it cost him the same amount-
Danielle Tubbs:
Same amount of work.
Matt Stauffer:
Effectively the same amount of effort. Whereas for you, your effort scales with the work that you're doing. So I wonder, because I think for people... Adam does a ton of hard work. I don't want to say that. But for him, I think that what the benefits he gets day to day from being an entrepreneur in the way he sees this, may not be the same benefits that you get as someone who has to scale up the work that you're doing. You're in the kitchen all the time. You're actually physically creating cookies and shipping things. And then if it gets to the point where you can't do it, you have to that point where like, when are you ready to hire help?
Matt Stauffer:
So I'm curious for you, at the stage of entrepreneurship where you are right now, where you are full-time doing what you're doing but you don't have any full-time employees or anything that, what are the day to day benefits that come from being the owner of your own business right now? Even though, obviously it's not less work, you're doing a ton of work. What are the benefits you do get from it?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah, I think because it's me, I receive all of the accolades? I guess? Accolades. And also, customers will personally reach out to me and I receive that. I feel like Jeni of Jeni's Ice Cream isn't necessarily hearing all the like, "Oh my gosh. Yum. This is so good. Dah, dah, dah, dah" and seeing all of the Instagram posts and whatever.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
So I think with that case, it's like if you email hello@tubbystaste.com, it's me!
Matt Stauffer:
You're going to get Tubby. Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
And so I'm going to hear the good. There's rarely any bad. There's never any bad.
Matt Stauffer:
That's okay. Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
But I hear the good directly to me, so that's nice. And to be able to handle if there are any issues that come about, knowing that no one else is dropping the ball. But in this next phase, I actually am on the cusp of hiring someone again to run production for me. So that way I'm going to be more doing all the other things that are more value for my time, like selling, marketing, and being the face of everything, and doing all the admin stuff behind the scenes.
Matt Stauffer:
So when you-
Danielle Tubbs:
Because in the last... Go ahead.
Matt Stauffer:
When you hire that person, are you now or have you considered putting yourself in a situation where you hire that person and then you have to go work some side hustles but it's worth it to help the business keep building? Or, are you at the point right now where you're like, "No more side hustles, I'm only going to hire somebody when the revenue from the company, the profit from the company can actually support both them and me"?
Danielle Tubbs:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So I'm hiring them through a grant and then supplementing some of the income through our revenue.
Matt Stauffer:
Would you ever take on a side hustle again temporarily? Or you're like, "This is a point where I did that, and I'm not going to do that anymore"?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I've had the option to do ad hoc babysitting this whole time in the pandemic, and I don't know if I want to.
Matt Stauffer:
Well, I think that's helpful. Just to note, that's not a bad thing.
Danielle Tubbs:
No, yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
You're like, "I made that sacrifice. And now it's not the right decision for me to make." Because the more you get involved in the company, the more the things that only you can do are the things that need doing, right?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
So it's going to be harder and harder to get to the point where like, "Yeah, I'm going to pay somebody who's not quite as attentive, not quite as honoring the thing, so that I can go babysit?" That doesn't actually make sense versus the hours put in, so I get that.
Danielle Tubbs:
I think it would have to be something that I'm highly skilled for or something that's totally just fun.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
And brings in... Like, if all of a sudden I was a bartender or something.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah. You'll think it through.
Danielle Tubbs:
Although I sleep at 9:00. So that would not work. I'd have to be a day time bartender.
Matt Stauffer:
There you go. I was going to say, you got to find those day bars where it's just like in the movies where it's just a whole bunch of half awake-
Danielle Tubbs:
Day drinking.
Matt Stauffer:
Anyway, yes. Yeah, day drinking.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. That would have to be it. It would have to be something where it's fun and makes a lot of money for one day a week.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. That wouldn't hurt. But yeah. And then I think that makes a ton of sense. So obviously, this is more about following your dreams. But your dreams don't involve you, I assume, going to the kitchen every day for the rest of your life.
Danielle Tubbs:
No, not at all.
Matt Stauffer:
Where on your way... You're in your dream some ways, but also I think you're still on your way to some parts of your dream. So what's the long term dream that has driven you to put in the amount of work you're putting in right now? Where would you like to be?
Danielle Tubbs:
So right now, we're in our first grocery store.
Matt Stauffer:
All right.
Danielle Tubbs:
It's called Urban Market in Chicago.
Matt Stauffer:
Woop, woop!
Danielle Tubbs:
Off of Chicago and Milwaukee Avenue. Our goal coming up is to get into 10 boutique grocers, the smaller ones. And hopefully we can do that, but if we have to bypass them because of... A lot of people are down right now. It's Q1 of the year and people are not necessarily bringing on new products. If that's the case and we have to try to pitch to a chain or something, then we will. I know my kind of revenue number as far as like, if we bring in more than this number, I'm going to have to start looking at co-packers, because that number equates to a certain amount of cookies and we just cannot hand produce that much.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Is a co-packer a situation where you basically teach a factory your recipe and they do it to your standards and then pack it? Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
So I assume that
Danielle Tubbs:
And that's a whole other journey.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
Some people kind of pause business and they're like, "I'm on my co-packer journey for a year." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, how do you do that?"
Matt Stauffer:
So, let's say we were five years out from now and you had the setup and the arrangement... And it doesn't even have to be about how Tubby's Taste is doing, but I want to know about like for year your life, what's the dream for your life five years out from now? Are you in the office every day? Is everything running so smoothly that you just travel for two months a time? What are you actually looking forward to?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. Five years from now, I would like to have a team. I would like to be able to work remotely as far as like... I would like to live in multiple places based on the season.
Matt Stauffer:
I like it.
Danielle Tubbs:
And spend some significant amount of time back in Miami just with family, chilling but doing work from there, you know? Working remote.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, but you don't have to be into the kitchen over there or something like that.
Danielle Tubbs:
No. There's no facility that I'm going into.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
We're not self-producing. We're in a co-packer.
Matt Stauffer:
Could you move to just full co-packing and you wouldn't even have your own facility at all at that point? Oh, cool.
Danielle Tubbs:
I think so.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
Possibly. Possibly.
Matt Stauffer:
And then the majority of the work that you'd be doing is sales and marketing and developing new recipes, but you can do that in your own kitchen, right?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Unless for some reason we just still handle the eCommerce side.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. They're going to be packing for the stores and then you're going to be packing for the e-commerce?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
Maybe. Or maybe they make all this stuff for us, but we fulfill those orders.
Matt Stauffer:
Got it. That makes sense.
Danielle Tubbs:
I know some people who do that.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
Because with the co-packer, then you'd get into a distributor. So the co-packer would make all your product, send it to the distributor, I think. And then they just hold onto the pallets of your products and take them to the stores. If it's Matt ordering for me online, I should have some product too to give to Matt.
Matt Stauffer:
Got it. Okay. So they might distribute some to your little tiny warehouse where you're doing your individual shipping out from there?
Danielle Tubbs:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Stauffer:
But in theory, you wouldn't be the person doing that, right? That's-
Danielle Tubbs:
No. No, not me.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
No, I don't dream of labor, remember?
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
So no.
Matt Stauffer:
So that's the thing. So part of the dream for you is?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yes, I am like popping in over here, having meetings.
Matt Stauffer:
Checking in to make sure it's going well. Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
Making sure the culture of the team is good, making sure the business is running smoothly, but there's somebody else who's handling the numbers and everything.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. So the dream for Tubby's Taste, I'm sure it's... And you can tell me that in a second. The dream for Danielle herself is to be involved in the business, to be the one who's kind of stamp of approval, goes on things, to be the creative director and all stuff like that. But the life goal is not to be stuck in one place in one office every day, but to be able to just go live in Miami for a while, go live in Chicago for while, get an Airbnb in freaking California for a while, whatever, right? And just have a level of life flexibility that you don't have right now, because you have to be going in, and you didn't when you had a 9:00 to 5:00, but you could if it became a more flexible remote thing.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
And I would also like to be married and maybe pregnant or-
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, which is a lot easier when you don't have to go to the office.
Danielle Tubbs:
... having a kid some way. Maybe we adopt. I don't know.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Okay. So last question I have for you and then of course you can tell me anything else you want to say before I move on to the actual last question of the episode. What's the dream for Tubby's Taste as a company? Like five years, 10 years, where would you like it to be?
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah, I would like to be able to get into everyone's hands in the nation, you know?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
In the US. So being able to be in larger chain, grocery stores, in the Whole Foods. Something where you could be across the country and be able to pick up your favorite Tubby's Taste flavor.
Matt Stauffer:
That would be cool. Someone listens to this and they live in Washington or something like that and they're like: "Oh cool. I'm going to go down to my Whole Foods" and they'll grab some Tubby's Taste?
Danielle Tubbs:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Stauffer:
Right. Which they could do if they go to tubbystaste.com right now, which you'll tell us in a second.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. We'll ship it to you.
Matt Stauffer:
I totally hear that. Okay. So before I ask the normal last question I ask everybody else, is there anything else about your kind of journey of following your dreams that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get to cover yet today?
Danielle Tubbs:
I think that just an important thing, and I don't know what... I can't remember what the last question is. Oh yeah, I remember now. I think an important thing or a really, I guess, value of mine, or I don't know, something I like about myself, is that I feel I'm never too old for stuff. My knees might tell me different, but I'm never too old to explore this new thing, start this new thing. Like I said, there's a big sense of wonder. And then also, it's never too late or never not the right time to kind of craft for yourself the life you want to live.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that.
Danielle Tubbs:
If that makes sense.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
And I'm not saying it's when you get on your Instagram-worthy world travels. I don't have money for that.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
But there's no limit to what you can do and who you can be if you really just put in the effort and work every single day to craft the kind of life that you want. Within some stipulations, right?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
But like... Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
I like that.
Danielle Tubbs:
If that makes any sense.
Matt Stauffer:
No. Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
You can wake up and say, "Okay, who do I want to be today? How do I want to be today? What will make my day better? Or what practice can I put forth today that'll benefit me in the future?" So doing stuff today that your future self will be proud of.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I love that. It's interesting because I think that I've never heard it the way that you just said it, which is not just things that will benefit your future self or things you won't regret, but something you'd be proud of I think is a really unique way of looking at it because I think that it sort of gives me the... What was that will Smith movie where he watched... I don't want to give away the movie, but he had-
Danielle Tubbs:
Pursuit of Happiness?
Matt Stauffer:
No, it was... He was... I can't reference what movie it was without giving away the ending of the movie. But basically, one of the aspects of the movie ended up being that he was watching people when nobody knew that they were being watched to evaluate their integrity and quality as people. So it's interesting for me because one of the most important things about integrity to me is being the same person when nobody's watching than I am when they are watching. And I think that what you just said really gives me an oomph towards that because future me is watching what I did right now, right?
Danielle Tubbs:
Right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Stauffer:
And so I really like that. Not this pejorative, like, "Oh, it's going to judge you," but do something that is going to make tomorrow or 10 years from now, "Matt, look back" and you're like, "Man, I did that." So I really appreciate that a lot.
Matt Stauffer:
All right. Your last question. What insight or support did you receive or need when you were younger that you hope more people will give to others?
Danielle Tubbs:
I think for me, I know people are always like, "Representation matters." But it truly does. And I think it wasn't necessarily things that people necessarily maybe said, but just by watching people. So watching my family, watching people who looked like me, baking, just instilled in me that this was something we did. This is something we could do. And I didn't bat an eye when I said "Oh, I'm going to learn how to bake from scratch today." Like, I woke up one morning in a beautiful kitchen and I said, "I'm going to learn how to bake from scratch." And within two, three months of doing that, I bought myself a KitchenAid because I said, "Who needs to wait till they're married and it's on their registry?"
Matt Stauffer:
Right. I love my KitchenAid.
Danielle Tubbs:
I got it from a Black Friday sale. Got the KitchenAid.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. There you go.
Danielle Tubbs:
If I had known I would've been in this business and been good at it, I would've bought a bigger one because my bowl is so small.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Danielle Tubbs:
And yeah, it wasn't until my roommate at the time was like, "Girl, I've burned things from a box. This is a talent." That is also not her voice. I'm disguising the voices for everyone's identity, you know?
Matt Stauffer:
Yes, so we don't know who it is. It's totally... Yeah, it's very thoughtful of you.
Danielle Tubbs:
I think just representation matters. And more so than your original question of what insight or whatever it is that I saw growing up, on the flip side, I want to try to be that representation for others. So as we're moving through the world, how can you set that example, I guess, too.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. All right. So if people heard this and they think, "Wow, she's just the best person I've ever heard in my entire life. I wish I could be her best friend. But since I can't do that, I'll just try and support her in some other way." What would it look like for somebody to follow your journey, support you financially, taste your cookies, whatever?
Danielle Tubbs:
So you can go to tubbystaste.com, T-U-B-B-Y-S, taste.com and you can order cookies there for shipping. If you're in Chicago, we do local delivery and pickup on certain days, select days. Don't be late. Don't show up late, because it's me. Or you can go to Urban Market in Chicago. And then just stay connected with us, @tubbystaste on Instagram. We're on Facebook, on Twitter, and we'll announce updates that way. If you sign up for our email list, we like to tell you about sales and we like to tell you about where we're going to be, whether it's a pop-up or a new store that we're in. And I create the email so we're not flooding your inbox.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, because you don't got time for that.
Danielle Tubbs:
And I check whenever people unsubscribe and I'm like... "I can't believe it. Susan? You don't want this? No, I'm just kidding.
Matt Stauffer:
Maybe just a little bit.
Danielle Tubbs:
I know. I know what it's to have Groupon be emailing you all the time all times of day. I don't know how they still have my email address. Yeah, that's it.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Danielle Tubbs:
And if you-
Matt Stauffer:
So all the social medias... Go ahead.
Danielle Tubbs:
... see this and it's something you like, slide in those DMS.
Matt Stauffer:
There you go. We talked about those plans about being married with the babies.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. So working on a five-year plan.
Matt Stauffer:
All right.
Danielle Tubbs:
I'm just kidding.
Matt Stauffer:
I can vouch for Ms. Tubby. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I would really encourage everybody else if you live in the US to just give the cookies a try. I give them as gifts to friends because I like them so much. They're really that good. But also, in doing so, you'd support Danielle's dream. But regardless, I'd also strongly encourage at you all to listen to this and if there's something you've been wanting to do, maybe go back and re-listen to this three more times so you can feel that inspiration to just go do that thing.
Matt Stauffer:
So Danielle, thank you so much for joining today and spending your time sharing with us.
Danielle Tubbs:
You're welcome.
Matt Stauffer:
All right.
Danielle Tubbs:
Thank you for having me. And start small, people. If you don't want to just jump off a cliff, start small. Make sure, if you're trying to sell product or service, that people want it.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Turns out that, that matters more than what you're building, is that people actually want what you're building.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yeah. Or it's just a hobby that you enjoy. Do it for those reasons. But if you want to make money, make sure that you can.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. Good point. All right. So after we got off the call, I realized I should have asked Danielle for a coupon code. She just made one right now. So can you tell us about this coupon code real quick?
Danielle Tubbs:
Sure. To get 10% off your purchases in the month of February, support Black History Month.
Matt Stauffer:
February 2022.
Danielle Tubbs:
Yes.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Danielle Tubbs:
Support Black History Month.
Matt Stauffer:
There you go.
Danielle Tubbs:
Use the code TWL, as in Things Worth Learning, 10. One, zero. TWL10 to get 10% off your purchases the month of February 2022.
Matt Stauffer:
Awesome. Thanks, Danielle.
Danielle Tubbs:
You're welcome! Bye.
Matt Stauffer:
Well, for the rest of you all, until we see you next time, be good to each other.