We all have stories we tell ourselves, about who we are, and what we do, and we think those stories are static. Stories like "I'm not artistic" or "I can't dance," or "I'm not a musician." When we can recognize those stories, we can also recognize that we are authors, and we can change our own story. In this episode, Risaa Jackson encourages people to rethink their personal stories and reimagine their capabilities as humans.
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The Framework
The Stories - Stage 0 (because developer)
These are some of my stories that can be used as a guide for your own list.
Learning You’re the Author - Stage 1
Most things are learnable skills (You have agency and the skills are not magic):
Some may be better naturally, and inevitably some people will have been doing it longer. However, you can 100% become really good at most skills. The way you do these skills might be modified depending on your body/mind. Some skills can also have a money/time barrier. However, we have more agency over what skills we can learn than most think, myself included.
Words matter
Just add “yet” or “learning”
Even if you have no interest in the skill, changing your language helps you remember that you can do these skills.
Power of Priorities - Stage 2
What skills call to you?
Is there a childhood dream you can try now?
E.g. “Learning how to dance is a priority for me.”
Power of Not a Priority - Stage 3
Feel empowered to say no to things.
Notice the ones that you feel guilty about. Maybe they should be let go.
This can create more space for what you do want to focus on.
E.g. “I could learn guitar, but it is not a priority for me.”
E.g. “I could train to run a marathon, but it is not a priority for me.”
Doing the Work - Stage 4
The earlier stages are more introspective, but here is where the work comes in.
Cycles of Reflection and Refinement - Stage 5
Different periods of life
Decades with a new story - Stage N
If you start now you can have decades with a new story. I find this motivating.
Matt Stauffer:
Hey, and welcome to Things Worth Learning. I am your host, Matt Stauffer. And this is a show where a curious computer programmer, that's me, interviews fascinating people about their passions. My guest today is Rissa Jackson apprentice programmer at Tighten. Rissa, would you mind telling the audience a little bit about yourself, whether it's your personal or your professional life?
Rissa Jackson:
Sure. My name is Rissa Jackson. I'm an apprentice programmer, as you said. And I spent some time teaching English in China in a previous chapter and then found programming. And my greatest love right now is acro as a movement. And I've been doing that for about eight years teaching for around seven years. I started a nonprofit for it. I was president for 2.5 years and vice president for about two years. And even though I'm always finding hobbies to fall in love with, that one's definitely captured my heart. And it really taught me that my body is capable of so much more than I thought. And often it was my mind getting in my way more than my body was.
Matt Stauffer:
Two notes about that. The second one is shorter. My friend just got back from a leadership retreat with this former Marine. And he is like, we spent the whole time basically with the Marine being like, it's not your body that's keeping you from being able to run these miles or whatever, it's your mind. And so it's funny because usually you hear that from much more of a tough head out perspective. So hearing it from someone who I know is as empathetic and caring as you, it's also really cool kind of hearing other side of it. The other thing is I know that at least some of the people here probably don't know what acro is, I do because my sister's super into it. But could you tell us like a little bit about what acro is?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, I would love to. Acro is often called acro yoga. I avoid that term because although you could do it with a lot of yoga influences, I personally don't, but it's generally considered to be two people or more who are doing acrobatics together. And so a good way to think about it is if you've ever seen a trapeze artist, their apparatus is that bar that they're swinging from whereas my apparatus is another human.
Matt Stauffer:
Who's often laying on the ground beneath you with arms up or legs up or whatever.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. They can be on the ground, standing.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And for anybody who hasn't seen it before, I think the simplest introduction for me, when I tell people about is imagine if you laid in the ground and put your arms in legs up and took a little kid and flew them around as an airplane, except that other kid was actually an adult and they were doing circus acrobatics type moves. That's the intro and they're like, "Oh, okay. I can kind of understand that." And people are doing flips and spins and it looks so smooth. I remember growing up, I didn't understand how difficult certain types of dance were. I'd watch ballet and be, okay, whatever. And then I was with someone who was a dancer who was just kind of like, hold this move that smoothly.
Matt Stauffer:
And I was like, "Oh my God, that's terrifying." Sometimes acro can be deceptively easy looking because you're like, "Oh, they're just smooth." But that's the work has been put in to make ... Anyway, anybody who wants to you can go Google it. Can we put links in the show notes to some of your videos? Would that be okay?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, definitely.
Matt Stauffer:
All right. Cool. Check the show notes, we'll have some. All right, cool. Before we get to the actual top of the episode for today, our first question always is, do you have any sort of life mantra or phrase or idea you try to live your life by?
Rissa Jackson:
Oh yeah. I was really thinking a lot about this when we were planning this and I ended up picking, I might regret this later, but I'm doing it anyways. Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. And I feel like in honor of that phrase, that's partially why I picked it. But before I explain what that phrase means to me, I'd really love to know what you think of that phrase.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. You're putting me in the spot here. I like that.
Rissa Jackson:
I have, yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
I have a personal response that is very similar to the ... I forget what it is, but something like shipped is better than perfect or something like that. It's just the idea that we try to get things perfect before we allow ourselves to actually put it out in the world or try and do the thing. And so when I hear you say that the bias I read into it maybe is just do the damn thing, don't worry about getting perfect just do it. That's how I respond.
Rissa Jackson:
That's exactly what I'm seeing in it.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay, cool.
Rissa Jackson:
As a recovering perfectionist, for me, this phrase has been really freeing, this concept of permission to just do things badly. And you maybe try not to end it badly. You look for growth and improvement in a healthy way but just that ability to be like, it's okay to do it badly because I want to do this.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. I have a very uncomfortable relationship with trying to make my body do certain things especially it comes to like dance and elegant stuff and people always laugh. They're like, "You're a bass player, you have rhythm." And I was like, "But it only stays in my fingers. It can't translate to the rest of my body." And it was only in the last five years where I just started saying, I'm going to dance anyway. I know that I'm not a good dancer I'm just going to do it. And it's been embarrassing at times, but it's been wonderful. I very much appreciate that. I love that a lot.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, definitely. And I think we can take it beyond the beginning stage. We can have that permission to do something badly forever. We can just enjoy it and not be good at it. And it's nice to not always have to have everything we do and produced be held to a certain level.
Matt Stauffer:
That's great. Meaning I can dance for the rest of my life, even if I never get any better and I can just enjoy it. And I like that. That's nice. Thank you for this therapy session. I feel like this podcast is bit by bit becoming ... I just finished the one with Beserat and it's like therapy the whole time. So anyway, thank you for the beginning of my therapy session here. Speaking of my therapy session, I already know what we're going to be talking about. I know it's going to be a therapy session. You know this podcast is about one topic you're really passionate about. Can you tell me what we're going to talk about today?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, definitely. Hopefully the mantra ties in clearly to this topic, but if it doesn't let me know and I'll try to clarify the connection that I see, but basically the concept or the topic that I want to cover is how we have all these stories that we tell ourselves. We tell other people, these identities that we connect with and we just feel so confidently that they are static. Clearly the way they are and not changing. And I want to challenge everyone, including myself to think about how can we change them and how can we realize that they are stories that we've written them and that we can rewrite them.
Matt Stauffer:
I actually will relate that to my therapy and ask you some questions there. I recently had some big life changes and a lot of my therapy lately has been trying to ... My therapist this morning literally said, "You're going through a second adolescence." And she's basically saying you are figuring out again, the thing that have been defined and static for you for the last 15 years of your life and now you're in this totally different life phase. And for me, it has to do with a change in relationship, but also a change in relationship to religion and other things. And so it's a lot of, oh, I'm going to be the one who's defining what I'm about instead of accepting other people's prescriptions. And so for me, the first thing I heard when you said that was not even my own narratives, but it was the narratives of other people that I internalized. I think my first question for you would be of the narratives that we consider static, where do you think they tend to come from?
Rissa Jackson:
Oh, there's so many places, but I like that you highlighted that some of them come from outside us because I think a lot do. There's stereotypes that we internalize and this relates to me not thinking I could be a software developer. I had all these internalized ideas of what a software developer was like and that was not me. And they also can be just things our parents unintentionally or intentionally give to us and we hold on to them longer than we should. And they can come from media, they just come from everywhere. But I'm sure also some of them come internally from us as well.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I promise I won't make this a therapy session, but I just could give so many examples of the things I'm actively working on right now where I have a story of, I am this, or I'm not this, I do this or I do not do this. This is acceptable. One of my therapists constant phrases to me is, I know you want to be a good guy, but that's your driving force in the world but where are your definitions of what a good guy is coming from? And how can you allow yourself to be someone doing some of that defining rather than everybody else.
Matt Stauffer:
There's these various aspects of the stories, the stories aren't even just that I'm a good guy the stories are also what does being a good guy look like and how do I get to be the one defining that? It's really complicated. It's really nuanced and robust. If you were wanting to help somebody understand this concept, what would be an example or a story that you could give for us to kind of just say here's what a static internalized concept could look like and here's what it looks like to realize it's actually not that static.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, definitely. I can give a story. I'd also like to mention that I've been thinking about this for a long time and just kind of playing with it and figuring it out. It's revealing itself to me as I learn more about it. And I feel like I'm kind of almost finding a framework of it so I'd love to go through some of the stages.
Matt Stauffer:
Please, go ahead.
Rissa Jackson:
But let's start with a really simple story. I think you gave a great example. You said you can't dance. You can dance Matt.
Matt Stauffer:
I can dance and I have been proving that by going out and dancing.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, you've been proving that.
Matt Stauffer:
The original narrative was I can't dance and then the later narrative was I can't dance well, but that even prompts the question of what does dancing well look like?
Rissa Jackson:
100%.
Matt Stauffer:
Is dancing well enjoying yourself or is dancing well performing particular moves. That's it for sure. And my static perception was definitely just that I can. I had a good sense of humor about it. I'm like, "I can't dance, but that's okay. I'm white. White guys can't dance. That's okay. No big deal." But I'm not at the point yet, I think where I can just walk into a situation and go what I'm doing is dancing well. Because can dance means you're doing it good enough according to some standards. I have not internalized a set of standards that allows me to do that yet. So right now I'm just saying, I know in my head that this is something I should feel free to do, so I'm going to do it, but I'm still embarrassed when I'm doing it. I don't know where that fits in your framework, but I'm definitely not to the end of the framework yet for sure.
Rissa Jackson:
I don't think there is an end. And I think it's just kind of realizing things along the way of, is being what we consider good at dancing important to you? We can get to that later, but are you enjoying it? Are you happy with what you're doing? If you are, then you are dancing and there doesn't need to be any further levels to that?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, for sure. For anybody who doesn't know, Tighten, the company that Rissa works at is the company that I co-run. And that means that I would as a part of Rissa's hiring process. And one of the things that she did exceptionally was in an interview process in an abnormal way, turn around and ask questions to us. And it was very much just kind of like, "Wait a minute, I'm interviewing you and you're asking me all these really deep questions." And I remember Dan and I especially were kind of just taken aback when I was like, "Oh, that's really deep. I'm going to have to think that." And so I'm very not surprised that you're already immediately turning this interview around on me. I'm like, "Wait a minute. I'm giving these here." Anyway, I see what you're doing here. Is there more of my story that you want me to be telling or do you want to move on to your framework?
Rissa Jackson:
We can start talking about the framework and if we end up turning it around on you more later, we can.
Matt Stauffer:
It's fine. You run this podcast today, so it's whatever you want.
Rissa Jackson:
Exciting. I was trying to think more about how I could communicate this and stages were coming up for me. And of course I'm starting with stage zero because I'm a developer.
Matt Stauffer:
Zero next to race.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. I think zero is the stories and we already had a great example from you. That can be, I'm not athletic. I'm not graceful. I can't dance. I can't draw, I'm not good at math, anything like that. And then once we get out of that stage, we learn that we have so much more agency of making changes to these stories. And so stage one is understanding that agency and that these are all just skills. They are not magic. You are not an artist or not an artist you can learn. And so some skills that I wanted to highlight are empathy, Michelle Hanson was with you talking about that as a skill.
Matt Stauffer:
That's the first thing I just thought of when you said that.
Rissa Jackson:
I Just really love considering that a skill, because I think a lot of us are just like, "Oh I'm not an empathetic human." You can be. Organization, public speaking, creating art, hosting a podcast, all these are skills that maybe you are more natural at them, but you 100% can get good at them.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I love that. For me, the first one is I've always ... I often had a perception that some people just had the connection of their body that made them a dancer and some people didn't and certainly that's true to a degree. Some people came by it more naturally by birth. Some people often I think came by it more naturally because of the environment they were in. If your whole family dances all the time and you're a baby dancing, you're a toddler dancing, then when you come to high school or middle school and you want to dance it's in. And that wasn't me.
Matt Stauffer:
There is an element where in choosing to be a dancer today versus somebody else I certainly am at a disadvantage, but I was like, but that does not mean that people who are professional dancers didn't take whatever they started from and go to another place through practice and effort. I got you. My phase one, I can learn to dance and I did go to a six weeks of a hip hop dance class 10 years ago.
Rissa Jackson:
Amazing.
Matt Stauffer:
I was the only guy there and it was very awkward, but I did it and I felt more comfortable with dancing afterwards than I did beforehand. Phase one.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, definitely. And as you pointed out, you are not necessarily, if you learn these things as an adult, you are not necessarily going to be better than someone who's been doing it their whole life. But I think one important aspect of all this is not focusing on how your skill compares to other skill, but how your skill compares to your past self skill.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. That's awesome. Am I improving?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. You can't do anything about not starting earlier. That is over. There's no longer anything we can do about that, but you can do something about starting now or tomorrow.
Matt Stauffer:
I like that. And you get all those memes about how old Oprah was when she started her company or whatever. And you're like, "Yes. Okay, great, cool." That doesn't just apply to your life calling. It could also apply to dancing or whatever other thing.
Rissa Jackson:
Childhood skill that you wanted to do, you can do it?
Matt Stauffer:
So you're saying I should pick up skateboarding tomorrow. Is that my next one?
Rissa Jackson:
Is it calling to you, is that a thing you want to do?
Matt Stauffer:
I mean, it was the first thing that popped in my head when you said that. Every time I see a skateboarding video, I go, I kind of wish that I had skateboarded as a kid. Maybe that's going to be my next one.
Rissa Jackson:
It's not too late, you should write that down.
Matt Stauffer:
I don't need to write it down. I remember it because I think of it every time I see a skateboarder.
Rissa Jackson:
And also part of stage one, I want to highlight that words matter. The way we say things really helps us think that way. When we say things and I'm guilty of this as well, but when we say things like I can at dance, it really emphasize in our brain that that is what we can't do. And so maybe you could say I'm learning to dance, just something that opens it up to more possibilities or I can't play guitar yet, I can't skateboard yet for you.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. And it's interesting because there's this whole, the secrets, speaking of Oprah, the secret and all those manifest or whatever, where a lot of people are like, "You just name it and claim it, it's just going to happen," which is bunk. But the idea that our words can impact our own reality, I don't think anybody would disagree with that. It can change your perspective or whatever. And especially as a parent, I can look at my kids and if he says I can't do this, my son says I can't do this I'm like, "No, that's not true." I understand it for him. That makes a lot of sense. You are choosing to speak in a way that reflects a positive and hopeful reality more than the negative decisions you've made, that's static story, right?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Stauffer:
That's cool.
Rissa Jackson:
And it's often easier to recognize that in other people. You can make that a thing where people just mention to you like, "Oh, you said I can't do this thing." Or you say it to them and it can be an uplifting thing. Not like I got you, you messed up. But just like, hey, we're all trying to be more positive and not cut off options from our life. We're not saying we can't do this thing we're saying we can't currently do this thing.
Matt Stauffer:
Yes. That's awesome. I love that.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. You were talking about how skateboarding is popping up for you a little bit every time you see something that reminds you of it. And so I feel like that takes very naturally to stage two which is priorities. I like to think of this as a pretty introspective stage where we're just noticing like maybe skateboarding just keeps popping up and you're like, "Okay. Maybe I need to like look into this thing, make some time into my for it because obviously there's some part of me that wants that thing." It could be anything, but just giving yourself some introspection to let those things pop up and figure out what they are.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I'm curious because the introspection for you is coming after the first ones. And so what you're really saying is prior to the introspection, you're really changing your overall perspective, because if stage one was just changing my narrative on a specific thing, then I would probably want to introspective beforehand. I would want to say, what are the things I want to think about and then how can I change my narrative about them? Am I reading right that in your perspective you want to kind of get rid of that line language blanket before you introspect and figure out where you're going to put your time and energy?
Rissa Jackson:
Ooh. Yes. I love this question. I think we can be introspective on stage one as well. But I do think that even if you never plan on changing ... I'm trying to think of something. I can't play guitar currently. I don't think that will ever be a priority for me to learn how to play guitar. However, I would like to live my life with my story being, I can't currently play it-
Matt Stauffer:
Yes. I love it.
Rissa Jackson:
... not I can't play it. We can have introspection about what that list of things of stories we've created for self is.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that.
Rissa Jackson:
Letting them go is great.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Phase one is a little bit about identifying and removing the negative static stories and then phase two is now picking what you're going to kind of spend your time and energy on going forward.
Rissa Jackson:
Yes, I understand.
Matt Stauffer:
I don't know if I got the numbers right but yes. Okay, cool. That makes a ton of sense.
Rissa Jackson:
Okay. And stage three goes along with stage two quite a bit. And that's also, looking at maybe some of those stories you have and just eliminating them as priorities for you. I think there's something beautiful about the fact that we have limited time in that it just helps bring into sharper focus what you want and what you want to focus your time on. One that happens to be for me is I have no interest in running a marathon. I 100% believe if I could if I put the time and energy into it. I think it's wonderful how great it can be for other people, but is not my priority. And so I already removed from my language that I can't run a marathon, but I'm also removing from my pseudo to-do list that I'm going to try to run a marathon.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. And I could say, you know what, my current level of dancing ability is enough and all I want to do is change my attitude towards it and then I can be fine and that still will change my dancing life for the rest of my life even if I don't spend any more energy in getting better at it. I hear you. I like that.
Rissa Jackson:
100%. I think there's something nice about letting go of things, especially if they are things you feel guilty about because there are things that come up for you and you think you're supposed to want them or other people you feel like you should be better at them. But maybe with the step you've learned, I don't actually have to feel any guilt about this. This is not something I want in my life.
Matt Stauffer:
All right. Where do we go from there now that we've kind of decided the things we're going to work on?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. We've done a lot of introspection, but now we're on stage four which is doing the work. We have identified things that are a priority for us. Hopefully we have maybe a list of them. And so now we start actually implementing the work to get to those priorities, to those new stories that we're looking for. And so I have random advice that I'm going to run through. If you have advice as well, feel free to say it. If you've decided, let's say you want to learn how to dance, don't remake the wheel. There are so many people who have advice on how to get there, how to be better at it, learn from other people who came before you. And don't try to do it all at once.
Rissa Jackson:
You can set goals and you can try to do something by a certain time, that can be really great for a brain, but you are not going to go from off tempo dancer to a professional dancer in a month, is just not going to happen. Maybe bring it into your life in baby steps. You take a class once a week and really you should embrace being bad at it. Make it fun if you can.
Matt Stauffer:
I'm good at that one. It's so funny because for this particular example, sorry to interrupt but with both the last one you just said and this one, dancing with my kids around the house gives me both the time to have it and embrace being bad because a daddy dance means a crappy dance and we just all laugh at it and it's very funny and they all make fun of my dancing, but it's a moment where I am working with my body even though if I'm not doing cool looking things. Anyway, as an example, but sorry, keep going with your advice.
Rissa Jackson:
And I like the concept of the dad dance because then that can make it safe for you to be vulnerable and dance around people because you're like, "I'm a dad I'm embracing the badness of it."
Matt Stauffer:
Exactly.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. So definitely embrace that. Bringing back the mantra from the beginning, do it poorly if it's important to you. And I think one thing that we all kind of struggle with is if we try to do something and we keep it up for a certain amount of time and then we fall off the wagon, let's say we're journaling and we journal for one month and then we stop, we really focus on, well I can't journal, I've done it for a month and I fell off the wagon and we assume that that is reflective of how our future experiences will be with it. But it's not, it can be a completely different experience. And I also feel like even with that month, you could look at the positive of it. You journaled for a whole month, great job.
Matt Stauffer:
Good on you. I love that. And it's continuing the same idea of taking the stories that we receive and tell to ourselves sometimes and choosing to reshape them. And I love that. And you use the word agency. One of my favorite words in all my therapy, I'm like agency and freedom are like, when I talk about all the time and I love the idea of you get to make the decisions of how you're going to interpret those things and you can choose positive and hopeful things rather than choosing negative and critical things.
Rissa Jackson:
Exactly. There are multiple ways to look at things. If you're going to pick the way you might as well pick the positive way.
Matt Stauffer:
Love it. That's awesome.
Rissa Jackson:
This is a little bit similar, but different from something I heard from my own therapist that I've been really loving. Let's say if I need to reschedule something with someone and I think it's going to make them feel stressed or I'm not reliable or something, I don't know what they're going to feel and I'm currently picking for them what they're going to feel. If I'm going to pick it anyways, I might as well pick positive things. Maybe they were feeling stress about doing it and they're excited to have the break and excited to have it rescheduled.
Matt Stauffer:
They suddenly got an hour their day back and you gave them that gift and you didn't realize it was going to be a gift. That's cool. I mean, and it's interesting how often we make decisions for other people. Not even just by our stress level, but sometimes we don't even allow them to do it because we've already for them how they're going to respond. We're like, "Oh, well they wouldn't X, Y, Z so I'm not even going to offer it to them." And the opportunities we miss out on by not just allowing people to respond the way they're going to and instead deciding for them because of our anxieties or whatever is pretty significant.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. And it's a thing I am still working on, but I like when I notice it so that I can try to make a different choice.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. That's awesome.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. One thing that I find really easy to see in my physical practices, I talked about how off my brain is in the way more than my body with acro as a physical practice, it is so obvious that progress is not linear. One day you try something and you can do five out five times perfectly and the next day you can't do it at all. And then the next day you do three out of five and it just kind of goes up and down and it's very clear, but that happens with everything.
Rissa Jackson:
As a developer one day you're learning a lot and then the next day it's all there. You remember it all and you're just like, "Wow, I'm great. I've learned so much." The next day it's all gone. You're just like, "Where did it go?" And I feel like it can just feel like, "Oh, I've gotten worse." But when you zoom out on progress, as long as you keep at it, it is going upwards, it's going to upward trajectory. And a way that I like to look at it is it's not linear, but chronologically it is.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And if you imagine a lot of times when you're doing any kind of statistics you have to look at the length and the frequency of the sample in order to really get a good thing, because people can manipulate statistics very easily by changing the X and the Y, but they also can do it just by zooming on certain things. Because you can show this small, oh it's an uptick or it's a downtick or whatever here. But if you zoom out, you get a completely different shape of the graph. And so if you imagine you could chart your graph growth as an acro person over two years, you would see that linear or whatever line. But if you zoom into a certain month, that month might look a lot shakier. That's awesome.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. 100%. And I think when you're having a bad day, try, if you can and remember that does not mean anything about your overall skill level or your progress. It's just an off day and it'll keep going upwards.
Matt Stauffer:
I love it. That's awesome.
Rissa Jackson:
And then one thing that I find incredibly important as a recovering perfectionist is break streaks on purpose. I think streaks say you have value, but the problem for streaks is if you get sucked into not breaking the streak and then once it's broken, you lose all motivation then that is not-
Matt Stauffer:
Didn't help.
Rissa Jackson:
It didn't help and that is not sustainable because there are very few things in life that you could keep a streak on and do it every single day. And so if you want longevity with anything, you cannot have a streak. You have to have days where you don't do it and then you get back on the wagon.
Matt Stauffer:
Wow. That's interesting because I know that a lot of gamification, like with workout apps and with dual lingo and stuff like that have discovered that focusing on streaks help us, but also a lot of the longer proven things involve breaks once a week, you've got to cheat day or a rest day or a whatever. And I never even thought about the fact that if you work out five days a week and take two days off versus having to fill your Apple watch circle for every single day for the entire whatever, it's a very different perspective because in one of them you reset to one or to zero at the beginning of every week and another one you never want to reset to zero ever again and the pressure builds the longer it's gone. That's a really interesting thought.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. And I will say that I get sad when I lose streaks, but what I've really tried to do is be purposeful about doing it occasionally. I am actually not going to get my Fitbit hours of activity for the day so that I don't like feel devastated on a day when I'm busy and I can't do it. And it has to fall off the list.
Matt Stauffer:
That's cool. I like that idea.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. That one feels like very important to me and it can be embraced in whatever way feels good for you, but at least consider it, especially if you're a perfectionist. And then just know that there are probably going to be plateaus at points and so if you get stuck into this next trick mindset and that concept really comes from acro. In acro we learn a trick and there are people you'll recognize them who are just like, they need the next trick and they need the next trick and they need the next trick. And they aren't going to work on making it better and cleaner and they get devastated if they're not constantly working and achieving the next thing.
Matt Stauffer:
It's like shiny object syndrome but for acro.
Rissa Jackson:
100%.
Matt Stauffer:
Is the opposite side of that to be okay. Can you tell me how about how that next streak syndrome compared to the concept of plateaus, how do those relate to each other?
Rissa Jackson:
Well, so if you keep following that, you're probably going to just hit plateaus and you might skip some of them by just trying to refocus onto something else but inevitably they're going to show up and maybe even plateau on just looking for new tricks. I don't know. Finding a way to be more comfortable with that discomfort of not feeling progress can be really helpful for longevity. And I think for me a huge thing is how can we make things sustainable and have longevity with them for these things that we want to add to our life.
Matt Stauffer:
That's good. I like that.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. One thing that I've really enjoyed learning about, so obviously affirmation is a concept that a lot of people are familiar with, but from how Hal Elrod's Miracle Morning, I learned of them in a new way that I really enjoyed. His concept of affirmations is that they're pretty goal oriented and they're supposed to be achievable goals. You're not just saying my affirmation is I'm wealthy or whatever, something that like feels untrue, because then when you're saying it it won't feel-
Matt Stauffer:
You're not actually wealthy in that moment.
Rissa Jackson:
Maybe a way to change that wealthy one would be, I will achieve financial stability or freedom. And then you kind of say why, and you're saying how and so why is, because I deserve to feel safe and secure and not worry about money and how is I'm putting in the work to achieve financial stability. Maybe you're reading books, maybe you're learning about how to do it. Maybe you're finding a job that's going to allow you to get there, whatever it is. But I find that really helpful to just be like, "I will achieve this thing because I'm doing the work to get there."
Matt Stauffer:
I like that. It reminds me of everyone talks about new year's resolutions. And I realize that one of the reasons I didn't like them is because most people don't actually set resolutions, they set goals and a goal is I'm going to do this particular thing by this particular date and a resolution is I resolve to just do something. And so for me, resolutions a lot easier if I resolve to work out number of times a week or read a certain number of books about financial stability or do X amount of hours a week towards a particular side hustle that eventually allow me versus my goal being to reach financial stability. It's like setting up a new year's resolution that's really just a goal that you may or may not get, things one of the reasons why people burn out of them a lot is because what are the steps from here to there?
Matt Stauffer:
But instead of you pick a step and resolve to do that step, which sounds kind of similar to what you're talking about, then you can say, all right, this is what I'm going to do today towards those goals. You can have goals, but steps or resolutions or affirmations, whatever that are getting you that direction, I feel like are much more manageable, doable, controllable, and less overwhelming if you miss it for a day because you can miss a day of reading the books without feeling like ... Versus the idea of what does even mean to miss a day of becoming financially stable? Who the hell knows?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, definitely. I also think one thing that you're really highlighting is how to take something that's more like a concept, it just feels amorphous and then you're just making it more concrete. Like something we can work towards in that makes sense to our brains and isn't just like, I don't know, I would like to not worry about money. That's a big concept
Matt Stauffer:
And it's a good concept to have, but then you have to break it down into things you can do. It's nothing wrong with not worry about money, how are you going to get there? I like that
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. Definitely. And I did this for getting a job Tigten. I had affirmations about getting a job at Tighten.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. Are you going to share them?
Rissa Jackson:
I mean, it's just like I will get a job at Tighten because I deserve a job that feels supportive and it makes me feel good to work at and I will get this job because I'm putting in all the work I can to get it. And for me, it's not that if I don't get the job I failed. It's just that from my perspective, I am doing everything I can to achieve this goal that I would like.
Matt Stauffer:
And you did a lot. You worked very, very, very hard at getting the job, while you were a great hire anyway, the fact that you put in so much effort certainly had an impact on our perception of you. That affirmation put you in a direction to take steps that most people don't take when applying for a job.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, definitely. And I think as perfectionist, it can feel dangerous to want something that feels uncertain. And so I think being able to avoid focusing on that part, but focus on what can I do from my side? The things I have control over. That felt like a good way to work towards something. And then it's like, "I did the best I can. It didn't work out."
Matt Stauffer:
I can't choose how people are going to respond to me, but I can choose what I'm going to put out there for them to respond to.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. Definitely. I like that. That is most of the stuff I have for stage four. Stage five is just how this never really ends. It's like cycles of reflection and refinement. One thing I was thinking about recently is maybe selfcare needs this own category. Maybe it already does have one, but maybe we're going to consider tools that we can add to our tool belt of meditation is a tool we can add to our tool belt or going to therapy. Those are things that we want to prioritize in our life. And I think that another thing that's come up for me recently is I think there are different periods of time we're in. There's moments where we have the openness to add skills to our life, but then there are other times where we need to start cutting back or just maintain.
Rissa Jackson:
And one example of that for me was not too long ago, you're telling me about how you were really having a hard time sleeping at night and so your priority was your sleep. And so you had to cut out some of those other things that are good for you but they weren't your priority at that moment, like working out or any of those other things. And so I totally believe that that's super valid. It's okay to break those streaks and pull back on those other things and just be like, the number one priority is sleep and then the rest of it can get added in when we have the time.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And in that particular circumstance, it's very helpful having both trainers and therapists and psychiatrists being like, "Hey all these other things that you're working on, sleep impacts all of them." When I heard that from so many different angles and I'd be like, "Well, I'm going to miss some sleep so I can get this workout in. I'm going to be some sleep so I can cook healthier meals. I'm going to miss some sleep so I can whatever." And then these people are saying, all those things depend on your sleep. I was like, "Oh, okay." Sometimes it's also just about prioritization. I need to set up what are my big rocks that must happen. And then I can start re-adding things back in. And also when you were giving the example earlier, where you were talking about just how we have these seasons, I mean many of the times that you've been saying things, parenting has come up in my mind, because for example, times where you can't choose as many things, it's certainly, especially parents of young kids.
Matt Stauffer:
But also, I remember talking, before I had kids, talking to a guy in my co-working space and he was like, I get one night a week to do whatever I want and I decided I'm going to pick up a hobby because I haven't had any hobbies for the last eight years. And I think I'm going to learn drums. Can you help me figure out what drum kit to get. And I just remember thinking one day a week, one hobby. And then I spent years with no days a week and no hobbies because I was not being as responsible with my own time and energy as that guy was. And I remembered him I was like, "Oh, I should be more like Andy with the one day a week with the one hobby."
Matt Stauffer:
And so it was a helpful lesson in needing to do just what you're saying, carve out time, pick out which things on your list, and there's different periods of time. People keep saying, hey, do you still play bass? And I'm like, "Well, I still consider myself a basis, but it has not made its way back over the top of list yet and maybe one day it will again. I appreciate what you're saying here."
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, definitely. We do not have to add these things to our life and then keep them forever and then just be forever adding new things. There's a flow to all of it. It that you can respond to. But I do think the thing that you said that is really key and I'd love to highlight is those core things, those really important things, like identifying them and making sure they're happening for you. And so for you in that moment, sleep was that core thing and maybe once that started getting better, then you can be like, "Okay, next thing is maybe healthy eating or something."
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting to imagine that you could ever say, "Hey exercise." Like the first time I heard a trainer say I'd rather you skip your workout tonight and go to sleep and get seven hours of sleep tonight. Blew my mind. Because I can't imagine a physical trainer saying don't do the workout. And so I think that was what got me on the road towards actually being able to understand, you know what you're saying.
Rissa Jackson:
And I think that's great that they cared about you and they were prioritizing your health over whatever their goals for you are.
Matt Stauffer:
For sure. Is that for your stages? I just keep wanting to give you space to bring up more.
Rissa Jackson:
I feel like it kind of has a stage N, still a programmer. Keeping this whole concept of how can we look at things with a positive spin or a less negative spin is, I like to imagine starting our life from the end and coming back to this present moment, we potentially could have decades with these new stories these new skills that we've added to our life. So maybe like right now, Matt, you've gone however many decades without the ability to skateboard, but you could have several decades where you were an amazing skateboarder and you can be like, "Yeah, I've been skateboarding for 40 years and I'm amazing." I just think that's really-
Matt Stauffer:
That old guy's skateboarding at the park. I picked this up when I was 37. Yeah. I like that. That's cool.
Rissa Jackson:
And then people are going to be blown away and they're going to be like, "How did you do it?"
Matt Stauffer:
Listen, there used to be a thing called a podcast. Let me show you the podcast on my MP3 player. Okay, grandpa.
Rissa Jackson:
They're going to be like, "That's not compatible with our technology."
Matt Stauffer:
I like it. I like this idea. We'll point back to this moment in time.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. I think that mostly covers the stages that I've considered. However, I do want to point out some of the things that I feel like are most important from all of this, to me. The most important thing is that realizing we have so much more agency than we think we do. If you want to get pretty good at anything, you can get pretty good at almost anything. I mean, there's different types of bodies. There are different things that happen that can get in the way, but it's still pretty incredible how much we are actually capable of. And once you've understood that, you can really think about what do you want to do with all that power?
Matt Stauffer:
With all that power. I like that.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. There's a lot of power we have and it's good to notice it. And then kind of the next thing that I really want to point out is that introspection is so important. Finding moments to have introspection because 10 years can go by and you haven't thought about the things that you wanted to achieve and so you're nowhere near closer to your goals than 10 years ago. One quote I heard that can be a little painful, I was like, "Ooh, that's a little hard to here." But I thought was great was staying busy is a form of laziness.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh no. Don't tell me this.
Rissa Jackson:
I am right there with you in the owl. You just shot me in the heart with that.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. So when you heard that, what was the first thing that you thought you wanted to change in response to that?
Rissa Jackson:
Just being like busy or being active in ways that I want and being aware of the choices I'm making when I do things. By being busy with this thing, I can't be busy with these other things, is the thing that I'm focusing on getting me closer to my goals or not.
Matt Stauffer:
Sort of like the conversation I had earlier with Scott about intentionality. It's not about not doing things it's about doing choosing to do the things that are going to move you in the directions you want rather than falling into whatever's in front of you, especially happens to frequently be doom scrolling and stuff like that for me, which keeps you busy. You can sit there for half an hour, but it's so weird to me that I can do scroll for half an hour and the next day say I didn't have any time for meditation yesterday. That's not true. I just didn't prioritize my time intentionally enough.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. And I don't think that this means that everything we do needs to be productive and needs to be working towards something. I think setting aside time to do nothing is just as important for us and can be part of intentionality. But just realizing that if we never create space to look at our life and be like, are we happy with where we're going? Are we happy with what we're doing? We won't have life giving us that opportunity. Most of the time it's are going to keep going.
Matt Stauffer:
That's really good. Especially as you look at the next 40 years of your life, imagine that you spent the next 40 years of your life not being intentional with your time and then look back and thought about all the things you didn't do because you were too busy filling it with whatever crap was pressing on you at the moment. That's deep.
Rissa Jackson:
Sorry. I didn't mean to hit you so hard with that.
Matt Stauffer:
No, it's good. I tell you, this podcast is just my therapy. I didn't realize this was going to happen, but it's just turned to a giant math therapy session every week.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. I mean, it's been therapy for me too. I like listening to it.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh, I love it. I know we're getting towards the end of our time, but I wanted to make sure, is there anything else you wanted to get to in terms of the notes you had prepared?
Rissa Jackson:
I think one thing that I hear a lot from people who talk to me about how they sort of want to be a programmer but they shouldn't do it or something is they worry about, well, if they do it maybe it takes them too years or four years or something and then they'll be whatever age, whatever age that feels old to them. And I think one thing that's helpful to think about is no matter what you will be that age.
Matt Stauffer:
It's coming either way.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. It's coming either way. Are you going to be that age and doing something that you want to be doing?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, that's good.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. I think that fits in with the intentionality, but just don't let those numbers stop you from doing things.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I mean, the memes about X was Y years old when they started this thing on the one hand, they're a little bit trite on the other hand, things become, what's the word for them where something's played out. Things become way because so many people saw value in them. We often go roll our eyes at the thing, but the reason you rolling your eyes is because you've seen it so many times because so many people saw it and went, wow, that's what I needed to hear right now, cliche. Cliches become cliches because so many people saw them and said, "Oh, this is true," and eventually get tired of it. But those things are true and we need to hear those stories. I like that. I just love that idea. I'm going to be 40 in three years, no matter what, what kind of life do I want at age 40 rather than, what things am I just keeping myself from because I'm about to be 40. Cool. Anything else you want to cover?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. I think that covers most the things that I wanted to cover. Are there any things that you would love to clarify or ask questions about?
Matt Stauffer:
No. I think that was fantastic, but I would say, could you run us through the steps real quick? Just kind of say stage zero this, stage one this, I think that'd be a cool way to close it out and then move on to the next question.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah, 100%. Okay. We start with stage zero. This is just our stories that we've created. Stage one is knowing that we have agency and that we can change those identities and stories we've created. And don't forget words matter. Stage two is the power of priorities. Figuring out what we want to focus our time on. Stage three is power of what's not a priority, letting go to things that we don't want to spend our time on. Stage four is doing the work and stage five is reflection, refinement, going back to the beginning and starting over again and stage N is decades with the new story.
Matt Stauffer:
I love it. That's wonderful. Of course, I'd say this every episode, I could pick your brain about 20 different things, but since we're at time, I will leave it to the imaginations of the listeners but in a second after this next question, I will also ask how they can follow you so if they have follow up questions or they can learn more about these amazing thoughts you have, they can do so. Before we get to that, the last question is what insight or support did you either receive or need when you were younger that you hope more people will give to others?
Rissa Jackson:
I like this question a lot. I would've loved to have more support, to be bad at things, try new things and be more aware of the possibilities out there, that I could go from bad to good at something and it be almost anything. My dad was hard on himself and very much on everyone else. And it was impossible to ever reach his expectations. And he's a large part of why I've struggled with being a perfectionist. And it's taken me a lot of time to learn how to decouple my sense of self from what I do. And so maybe other people have had a different experience and they feel aware of all these possibilities, but if they don't, I'd love for them to have more support to know that they have so much more agency than they think they do.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. And as a dad, I'm a perfectionist, I'm very hard on myself. And I literally hear that from people almost on a weekly basis, you need to set lower standards for yourself and have lower expectations for yourself. And of course, I want to do that for my own health, but also, what you just said very much reminds me that it's not just me that it's going to impact it's also my kids because not only the way I treat them, but even if I treat them better, the example that I'm setting for them is going to be impacted by how I treat myself. Thanks for the therapy.
Rissa Jackson:
You're welcome.
Matt Stauffer:
If people think you're fascinating and wonderful, how can they follow and/or support you?
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. I'm on Twitter, Rissa_Bubbles. There's a story behind that one. And I'm on Instagram.
Matt Stauffer:
You can tell us or no?
Rissa Jackson:
Oh sure. When I was younger, I had two other friends and we went as the power puff girls for Halloween and I was blonde at the time so I was bubbles. So then I was Rissa Bubbles for a long time.
Matt Stauffer:
All right. I love it. So it's just stuck.
Rissa Jackson:
It just stuck.
Matt Stauffer:
Very cool. All right. Sorry. You were saying Instagram.
Rissa Jackson:
Yeah. On Instagram. I'm Duo, D-U-O- underscore RNR and I don't post on that a lot. I'm pretty bad with social media. I'm getting better at social media.
Matt Stauffer:
I like it.
Rissa Jackson:
But trying to use words. The RNR is because I have a partner. We do acro together and his name is Rooney. My name is RSA. We're Duo_rnr.
Matt Stauffer:
I love it. Would that be a good place people to look for addition to the links in the show notes if somebody wants to check out your acro, that'd be a good place to look.
Rissa Jackson:
Oh yes, definitely.
Matt Stauffer:
I love it. Well, this was freaking fantastic. I feel good about my life and I know everyone else who listens to it. Well, so thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you bringing this hard earned insight to bear for the rest of us and so we can all learn from the hard work that you've done.
Rissa Jackson:
Thank you so much. And if people have thoughts about it, they have new insight on all of these concepts please let me know, because I'm constantly trying to learn more about this stuff.
Matt Stauffer:
I love it. If this reminds any of you all of Ted talk or a book or anything like that, definitely tag both of us. @Stauffer Matt in Twitter, and @Rissa_bubbles on Twitter. We'd love to hear more about it. All right, until the next time, you all be good to each other.
Rissa Jackson:
Thank you.